A reader raised an interesting question:
Can solo masturbation be considered a "sexual" relation? Can a person have "sex" with themself?
I was curious to hear what you had to say on this.
When presenting your arguments, please try to state them as fact and show your sources. Feel free to use scripture, church resources, scientific data, quotes from professionals...
I also ask that we be respectful in how we present our arguments. Attack the idea, not the person. Hateful words or angry rantings will not be accepted. Think in terms of "help others to heal" "help others to know where to go."
I'm looking forward to your responses.
20 comments:
Merriam-Webster definition: heterosexual intercourse involving penetration of the vagina by the penis. So no, a person can NOT have sex with one's self, unless of course one is an Hermaphrodite... However addressing the first question, is solo masturbation a sexual relation? Well, it depends. If you define sexual relations as those activities associated with sex (I.E. Foreplay) then no (though mutual masturbation would fit here). If however you define sexual relations as anything leading to sexual climax, then yes.
I find it interesting how much people focus on terminology and how definitions carry so much obligation. For example, my wife considered the idea of helping out (I.E. stimulating her own clitoris) while having sex wrong! It's self gratification and therefore masturbation. However she had no issue with me positioning myself in such a way as to feel the most pleasure during sex, or heaven forbid, rubbing myself on her leg while making out! Both bring me pleasure and require only me to do. Therefore it is self gratification...right?
So where's the line when making yourself feel good and masturbation cross? IMO, it's the thoughts and participation of our spouse. I believe that if we are completely selfish, it would be masturbation even within her vagina. if she's not emotionally there and you use her as and object and you're only purpose is for self gratification, you might as well masturbate. "Making love" should be giving and taking(receiving). Both are participants at giving and taking pleasure and so there should be no guilt, only love. The problem is when the balance goes to one side and one is only taking. The same is true of masturbation.
I'll admit that I was once away from my spouse for an extended time and succumbed to masturbation. It would have been easy to say it was fine. I could have put my wife on the phone and called it phone sex. But I couldn't have given her pleasure any more than she could give me. That's the problem with solo masturbation...you deny your reliance on your spouse for sexual satisfaction and take it into your own hands(no pun intended). There are so many justifications out there...but really? Why do we need them? I abstained from masturbation for a good 6+ years prior to marriage. And I know there are others with greater self control. Do yourself and your marriage a favor. Quit trying to find out if it's okay and consider the benefits to your marriage of always keeping sexual relations a together thing. And if you do, (and believe as I do that it is "sin") repent with the help of your ecclesiastical leader and move on.
[climbs down off soap box to avoid stones]
This is a good question that really should be addressed because it's such a huge issue for so many men especially.
I'm actually working on a full post on this, because I feel it deserves a discussion with documentation.
In brief, though, the word "relation" means "connections between people" from Dictionary.com One cannot have "relations" with oneself.
Interesting, you did not ask in your question whether or not masturbation is a sin.
The question seems to ask whether it is a breaking of the law of chastity, "to have no sexual relations except with your husband or wife to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded."
I believe the word, "relations" makes it clear this involves another person.
In other words, a person who has masturbates has not violated the letter of the law of chastity as described in the temple.
However, that does not answer the question of whether or not masturbation is a sin or whether it's biologically helpful or healthy--something I hope to tackle in an upcoming post.
Actually you make a good point. Violation of the marriage covenant would including pornography, most often brings some form of church discipline, even if it's just loss of sacrament privileges. This is NOT the case with masturbation. It still would require talking to a bishop for full repentance, but is not generally disciplined. Again, emphasizing generally. But then, one of my favorite teachings is (don't know where it comes from) that the worse sin is the one we have trouble with because it keeps us in a state of spiritual death.
Anon-9/29--Sources please. Your source for masturbation requiring talking to the bishop?
Also--your source for pornography requiring church informal discipline?
I agree the two are different, even though they often go together.
I've read the Church Handbook of Instructions Book 1 for bishops and Stake Presidents, (Though not officially published, it is available online if you do some digging) and I don't agree fully.
The manual is actually quite unclear, and refers to scripture,w which is also unclear about the masturbation issue--perhaps intentionally so.
A lot of discretion is given to bishops. One challenge is the interpretation of words like "unnatural, unholy, or impure practices," which are extremely unclear. Medical or health professionals almost unanimously consider occasional masturbation absolutely natural. Whether it's unholy or impure would mostly depend on your own religious views.
Given the context of this manual or others, it seems to me the Church is interpreting "unnatural, unholy, or impure" as things like incest, homosexuality, bestiality, rape, child abuse, or transexual surgeries. Masturbation would not fit in that category, nor would pornography--even though pornography is also mentioned separately as a sin to avoid.
Re Anon-9/29: I have to clarify...The statement on pornography is just from personal experience; those with whom I associate that have had problems with pornography with several different Bishops have had certain restrictions placed on them. So it may not be in some manual somewhere. I did leave an out for this...I didn't say "Always." ;) I wasn't actually trying to
As for masterbastion, how about the miracle of forgiveness chapter 4. "The confession of his major sins to a proper Church authority is one of those requirements made by the Lord. These sins include adultery, fornication, other sexual transgressions, and other sins of comparable seriousness." (see here). I"m sure there's other quotes, but the important thing is that if a person is sincere in there desire to repent, they won't be arguing with themselves about whether they need to see the bishop. They will be contrite and humble and do what needs to be done to gain forgiveness. If there's even a slight doubt as to whether you should talk with your bishop, you should. It won't do any harm and even if it's not strictly necessary it would do a lot of good!
RE anon 9-29:
Sorry, I wasn't trying to make the pornography dicsipline thing sound like bishops were told to do it. I was simple sharing what holds true for most of those I associate with that have had issues with pornography. I did leave myself an out as I did not say "always." ;)
As for masturbation, well, just do a search for "confess" on lds.org. You will find statements such as this by Elder Scott. "You always need to confess your sins to the Lord. If they are serious transgressions, such as immorality, they need to be confessed to a bishop or stake president." or this by Pres. Spencer W. Kimball, "The confession of his major sins to a proper Church authority is one of those requirements made by the Lord. These sins include adultery, fornication, other sexual transgressions, and other sins of comparable seriousness."
What difference does it make if I might ask? I certainly wasn't trying to start a debate on whether we need see a bishop for certain transgression. An individual likely knows be cause the Spirit/their conscience nags at them and won't let them leave it alone. If a person is contrite and truly repentant, this is a mute point of discussion as this would be the least of their worries. If in doubt, just do it. No harm will come to pass, but it will do considerable good.
If one really wants to know if a sin needs to be confessed to their bishop, they could just ask him. I'm sure that would work. :^P
Excellent comments guys and I'm grateful for your participation and respectful communication. We are starting to stray off topic however.
Please help me stay focused on answering the question:
"Can solo masturbation be considered a "sexual" relation? Can a person have "sex" with themself?"
Once we have answered this question, we can venture into whether or not and to what degree it is sexual sin. That is a whole other topic.
Please carry on. :0)
I'm not convinced that we can't have "relations", sexual or otherwise with ourselves. Sex is more than penis and vagina, and where they go.
We can like ourselves. We can even talk to ourselves. We can love or hate ourselves, as if we're separate in some way. And aren't we? Right now, as mortals, we are spirit and body combined. Both the spirit and the body have a form of consciousness, otherwise we wouldn't have this sense of looking through our eyes out of our bodies like we do.
A lot of psychology is concerned with our relationship with ourselves, such as Milton Erickson's work. How would selfishness even be possible if we couldn't be concerned about ourselves?
The scripture that says "Thou shalt love the Lord..." and "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Matt 22:37, 39) illustrate our three great challenges in life - establishing a successful relationship with God, with others, and with ourselves. Since we are largely sexual beings, doesn't it then follow that we can establish a sexual relationship with ourselves? We can stimulate ourselves to orgasm (masturbation), we can stimulate ourselves mentally (when we watch porn), and if we do this outside of marriage (or porn anytime, really), then our body gains power over our spirit, and our relationship with ourself goes out of balance.
Why would we be warned in the "For the Strength of Youth" pamphlet that we shouldn't stimulate these powerful feelings in ourselves if we couldn't establish "sexual relations" with ourselves? It wouldn't make sense.
Just my thoughts. Thanks for listening. :-)
Re CoachSam:
I have to disagree. I don't think we were off topic anymore than you were with your post. The title of your post clearly insinuated (clever wording, I know :) ) that the question of whether solo masturbation was a "sexual" sin would be answered. We are simply answering it. :^)
Good point. Please stay on topic. :0)
In the LDS Marriage Manual:?
Confession—The Bishop
The formula for repentance requires that we confess. Our first confession is to the Lord in prayer. When our mistakes are not grievous ones, and if they are personal, that may be all that is required by way of confession.
If our transgression includes tampering with the procreative capacities of another of either gender, then there is a necessary confession beyond prayer. From His priesthood the Lord has designated the bishop to be the common judge. If your transgression is serious, and your conscience will tell you whether it is or not, seek out the bishop.
Sorry, Sam, I strayed from topic. I couldn't help but share this quote. "... tempering with the procreative capacities of another...". This would then not apply to masturbation.
I might mention, that the Law of Chastity (in the temple) used to be defined as "you will have no sexual intercourse, except with our spouse..." (it was changed back about 1994?). Due to many members justifying other sexual activities (hey, I didn't have intercourse - just oral sex - so I didn't break my covenant), they changed the definition of the LofC to "no sexual relations", which would be any sexual contact with another person.
So, my argument is that the temple definition is being directed to what we do with others.
to be continued...
continued...
I also want to suggest that the directions being given in the FTSOY pamphlet are being misinterpreted by many people (IMO). Read the paragraphs before the last sentence:
"Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife. God has commanded that sexual intimacy be reserved for marriage.
When you obey God’s commandment to be sexually pure, you prepare yourself to make and keep sacred covenants in the temple. You prepare yourself to build a strong marriage and to bring children into the world as part of a loving family. You protect yourself from the emotional damage that always comes from sharing physical intimacies with someone outside of marriage.
Do not have any sexual relations before marriage, and be completely faithful to your spouse after marriage. Satan may tempt you to rationalize that sexual intimacy before marriage is acceptable when two people are in love. That is not true. In God’s sight, sexual sins are extremely serious because they defile the power God has given us to create life. The prophet Alma taught that sexual sins are more serious than any other sins except murder or denying the Holy Ghost (see Alma 39:5).
Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not allow anyone to do that with you. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body."
What is being taught here is that we don't particpate in activities with another person to stir up those powerful emotions in ourselves, because they lead to poor choices and lead us down the wrong path. In other words, don't allow yourself to get those emotions going by "participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing".
I might refer you to the following link on lds.org, which is titled, "Chastity:What are the Limits?"
https://lds.org/youth/video/chastity-what-are-the-limits?lang=eng#chastity-what-are-the-limits
You will notice that it is talking about Chastity as not doing things of a sexual nature with another person. It does NOT mention any self stimulation.
Bottom line, my answer to your question, based on the intent of the LofC, is No, you can not have sexual relations with yourself.
People will try and minimize definitions in the dictionary, but when you do that, you have no real definition, or you create your own. For someone to have a relationship, or relations, it must consist of two people - unless you have multiple personalities :) but then there are more serious issues going on.
You will find NO references in the General Handbook of Instructions to masturbation being something that needs to be confessed to the Bishop. If it becomes an out of control action, a habit, just like any other habit that begins to control your life, then a Bishop may be someone you turn to for help. For youth, the parent should be the one a child should turn to first. So, as a parent, we need to talk openly about such things and let them know we have been through those growing years, so we understand what they are going through.
Would a loving Heavenly Father call something a sin, then purposely implant in his children the strong powerful, hormonal, urges, such that 90%+ of his sons and 40-60% of his daughters (regardless of religous beliefs) would sucum to in the form of self stimulation/masturbation? How wrong would that be? And, to those out there who have not been a Bishop, those %'s I used are NOT out of line. From my experience, they hold true for members of the Church.
If the GAs wanted simply to emphasize the point they'd already said in the paragraph the last commenter quoted in the FTSOY pamphlet, they would most likely have said "Do not arouse those emotions in your body" and left it at that. Adding the word "own" to that sentence indicates another circumstance to avoid, namely masturbation.
It's not a horrible thing that those desires are in us, and they are strong. We don't have to stop believing in God because he said that solo masturbation is wrong, yet placed those very desires in us.
By comparison, it's a very minor sin, but one with very definite consequences. The worst thing about it is that it leads the body to dominate the spirit, which is a relationship we each have with ourselves in this life, whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not.
It's not crazy to admit such a relationship. The body is not dumb and blind. It has a consciousness of its own. If the rocks can cry out at injustice as the scriptures say, what makes us think our bodies can't make themselves heard? (Luke 19:40)
The body makes demands that should not be ignored, but neither should they be indulged irresponsibly. We have to acknowledge that and work with our bodies if we ever want to make peace with our sexuality within the framework of the gospel.
Anon 1:44, I agree with the previous poster. By adding the word "own" does not change what the FTSOY pamphlet, or the LoC is refering to. They are talking about doing things of a sexual nature with another person, not solo.
I don't think anyone here is promoting masturbation, but just trying to put it into perspective.
As an active member trying to live a good life and teach my children well, etc. I have looked at things a little differently through the years. My wife and I are raising two young kids. She has never been as into sex as I have been. We have a solid, fulfilling marriage, but are mismatched sexually. We bought the Laura Brotherson book and have both read it and had some sincere two-sided conversations--both of us trying to meet the other have way. For quite a stretch, she felt pestered to have sex once or twice a week and I felt physically uncomfortable and unappreciated. The sex we had was often a chore for her and disappontiment for me. We decided to have nice sex regularly, but less often--maybe once or twice a month. And when I am hankering for it, I ask her if she's in the mood and when she's not, I masturbate in the room with her. I hoped we'd read the book, have sincere discussions and have this epiphany and have more and better sex, but instead we have a compromise that works for us. The sex we have now is really nice--better than ever. Sex is not as frequent but I temper desire with the release valve of masturbation. As someone who repented of masturbation prior to serving a mission and abstained for over a decade, this agreement was a leap, but is an accomodation that has been great for our marriage. Porn, fantasy involving others are bad--divisive. Before marriage masturbation stokes desire, but for us, this is mutual respect and love and I think we live the law of chastity. I love my wife. Our sex life was a stumbling block--just about our only one. I think this is a valid way for us to honor our marriage.
As a bishop and a husband of nearly 20 years, I address this topic on a semi-regular basis with my ward members. I counsel members, and particularly single members that masturbation is a sexual activity in its truest form. There is arousal, sexual stimulation, and generally orgasm, thereby defining sex. I strongly encourage single members to avoid it because of its opening of sexual pathways to other behaviors reserved for the sacred marriage relationship. I have found it tied to porn use among single members, regardless of age in almost every instance.
I do counsel married couples differently however. When a brother or sister comes to me with these issues that is married, the first question that I ask is if their husband or wife knows about it. I genuinely feel that by coming to me, they are acting on specific direction from the Spirit. Their hearts have been pricked. These individuals that come to confess rarely indicate tat their spouse knows that they are engaging in solo sex. Rather, they fear it getting back to them.
As you may imagine, there are several issues with this. The first is a lack of communication etween spouses of both sexual need and practice.i counsel individuals on many aspects of communication. I must confess that I am a family sociologist so there are times that my professional and spiritual experience mix. But I digress. I will say that those individuals and couples that I counsel from a spiritual perspective lack those communication skills. That does not mean that here aren't differences in sexual appetite or perceptions of what is acceptable in a married sexual relationship. However, across the board, the lack of communication typically encourages dysfunction and feelings of broken trust.
The second issue is with those very perceptions of what is acceptable in a worthy, sanctified LDS marriage. I personally believe that self-stimulation in the sexual act with your spouse is not only not wrong, it can be a powerful tool to teach the other partner what feels good to the other and create a deeper sexual union and experience. However, let me caution that it should not replace the sexual experience between couples.
The third issue is restraint. Our goal in this life is to master our physical selves and those desires, appetites, and passions associated with the natural man with our spiritual selves. In no way should we allow masturbation to limit our spiritual growth. When individuals and couples come to me, there is often a lack of spiritual maturity. Similarly, I counsel couples prior to marriage that once married, they should enjoy the sexual experience and that if they can feel the spiritual bonding that can take place during sex that the couple's decisions of what constitutes that practice is generally good and wholesome. I do counsel strongly against porn.
Finally, when individuals or couple come see me about this, I try and get them to open up those lines of communication. I have actually referred many couples to this site and find it (while not completely doctrinal) very helpful in giving couples a starting point for discussion in their sexual relationship.
The question if masturbation is sex goes without saying. It is sex. However, when part of an OPEN and loving, trusting, and communicative relationship, it can actually be very beneficial. However, each person must come to their own conclusion of what is right and what is wrong. Follow the Lord's admonition to pray as a couple and you will know what to do and how to do it. I wish everyone the best and thank you for your posts.
There are some good comments here, however, they seem limited. First, the "M" word has been taken out of the handbook entirely. Porn is indeed regularly discussed. Alma's opinion to his son, was first, a special occasion as a missionary running off with a prostitute. And second, his opinion. Yes, prophets have opinions. Paul said women shouldn't speak in church, John Taylor said blacks were sent here as the minions of Satan, McConkie said blacks wouldn't get the Priesthood, Joseph Fielding Smith said men wouldn't go to the moon, George Q. Cannon said monogamy was the cause of the fall of the Roman Empire. You get the idea. You can gradate sin all you want with the "sex is next to murder" speech, but Jesus abhorred the gradation of sin. Don't all people sin and fall short? Nonetheless, we gradate sin for temple recommend purposes. I asked 5 bishops over the years about masturbation. 3 Said it was "no big deal" and not to bother them about it unless there was a huge addition. Another said it was appropriate after Marriage. Only one said it was inappropriate after marriage, saying we might be thinking about someone other than our wives, but he didn't mention that we might think about someone else while having sex with our wives. No one asks that question. As for the comments of the Bishop, they are mostly good, however, I disagree that people come to ask this of the Bishop because they feel "pricked" by the Holy Ghost. Most come to the Bishop to ask because they have been told they need to feel guilty about this from a young age. People feel guilt for many reasons other than the Holy Ghost. Mormons in particular, tend to manufacture gobs of guilt about all kinds of things (probably why Utah has the highest prozac use in the nation). Anyway, the Bishop also asked if the spouse knew. Well, I'm fine if my spouse masturbates, but I don't want to know about it. That's her business. I really don't want discussions about it. As for his comments in the bedroom with our spouse, those are great comments, and indeed can help the sexual relationship. FYI, Spencer Kimball said that he regretted many of the things he wrote in Miracle of forgiveness. Opinions change, even among church leaders. As for the idea that pre-marriage teens need to stop all masturbation before a mission...that's a tough one. Yes the Packer pamphlet TYMO talks about it, but then also supports the physical abuse of gays. Things change. Its funny we've become so puritanical considering where we came from sexually. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young not only never spoke of masturbation, but in Utah, men were allowed to act as sexual surrogates if a man couldn't impregnate one of his multiple wives. Long and short, masturbation is natural, actually reduces prostate issues later in life, and doesn't need confession. Indeed it can also be part of a compromise regarding frequency.
Dear July 11, 2012
Thank you for your comments. I will have to ask for the exact references. You gave acronyms of articles, but some got blurry. For example "TYMO". I fear some of the information you shared may be out of context. We will need clarification.
For example: Where exactly did Spencer W. Kimball say that he regretted some of the things he wrote in the Miracle of Forgiveness? Also, if TYMO is the article I'm thinking of, Boyd K Packer never promoted the abuse of people with same-gender attraction. I had been taught that if we are a missionary and have a companion who makes sexual advances on us, we are to defend ourselves. I don't recall anywhere that the GA's promote the active seeking out of homosexuals to physically attack them.
Please provide references to all the GA (past and present) statements you give above. My readers would be very interested to look them up to see what context those quotes were given in. Otherwise, we cannot take your statements at face value - mine or anyone else's. Rumors are too easily spread. Statements are taken too easily out of context.
Again, thank you for your respectful participation.
I think it is a complete myth in the church that masturbation is a violation of the law of chastity. This law is clearly defined in the temple. And as discussed above, masturbation is not a "sexual relation" with someone other than your spouse.
Further, it is clear from the church handbook of instructions that a M is not something that has to be addressed in a formal way while violations of the LOC must be addressed. These two are clearly not the same.
Anyone that thinks the LOC includes M I would like to see some source for this belief that is clear and convincing.
Dear Anon Jan, 5,2017 7:53PM
Thank you for reading and your question.
I did write a follow up article to this post. It's called "LDS Doctrine or Cultural Myth:A Sexual Relationship With Yourself?
Here I did discuss how solo-masturbation (especially that engaged in outside of marriage) is not condoned by the Lord or church. The article includes references that I think you may find helpful.
Below is the link. If Blogger won't allow it to be click link, copy and paste it into your browser and it should take you directly there.
https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=4645039889654077206#editor/target=post;postID=5722312791593575185;onPublishedMenu=allposts;onClosedMenu=allposts;postNum=149;src=postname
After reading this article, if you have any questions, please let me know. If you have/find any doctrinal resources that justify masturbation as a married person or otherwise, I would be interested in knowing what you find as well. Again, Thank You!
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